Interview: Archbishop Pius Ncube

Interview: Archbishop Pius Ncube

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SW Radio Africa's Violet Gonda interviewed Archbishop Pius Ncube for the programme, Hot Seat which aired Tuesday. Here is the full transcript of the interview:

Broadcast on Tuesday, November 14, 2006

Violet Gonda: Welcome to the final segment of the debate on the recently launched church discussion document called The Zimbabwe We Want: Towards A National Vision For Zimbabwe.

It’s been said the church is in a very difficult position. Being critical hasn’t really made an impact and being soft hasn’t helped either. Is the church now trying to confront wrong, but without offending the regime? These are some of the issues discussed on the program with one of the signatories to the document, Catholic Archbishop for Bulawayo Pius Ncube.

Some critics have described the document as being too soft, like Thabo Mbeki’s quiet diplomacy on Zimbabwe. So I started by asking the cleric if he agreed with these sentiments.

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Ya I think it’s true. You see I think someone leaked among these three bodies of Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe, the Zimbabwe Council of Churches and the Zimbabwe Catholic Bishops’ Conference, somebody leaked it to the Government and then the Government was demanding that before it’s published certain passages should be removed. And so I’ve seen that it’s been really toned down.

It’s not the real original document that we agreed upon as Churches. They’ve cut it down into a very, very soft document but perhaps still it can be used as a discussion document. But I don’t like the bullying of the Government. This Government has done enough harm; enough bullying, they are causing suffering on people and now they must come over and bully us, the Churches. That was supposed to be our document, not their document. I’m pretty angry about this.

Violet: When you say that certain passages were removed or the Government ordered certain issues to be removed from the document, do you remember which parts were actually removed from the original document?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: I haven’t studied it altogether, but, for instance, I was looking at the media and we were pointing out how the Government is pushing us around in media and it’s causing, there’s no liberty of expression, and the Government goes to add only one sentence; cuts down the whole paragraph. It says ‘the media is polarised and is not always working for national unity’, that’s all that they write. So that they cut down the document to favour them. Anything that was quite strong referring to the Government and all the problems that they ought to address they didn’t address. They cut it down and they softened it, so that it’s really like decaf; decaffeinated tea you know. The strong side and all the issues that they feel strongest about, they’ve really toned them down.

Violet: Now, there were others…

Archbishop Pius Ncube (continues): …but, I haven’t finished comparing because I lent my document to somebody, somebody who is researching, this person is a student involved in studying current issues involving Churches.

Violet: Would you also agree with critics who say that there are quite a lot of issues or other things that were not dealt with in detail, like Gukurahundi, the Youth Militia and torture. Would you agree with this?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Yes, Gukurahundi was mentioned but it’s too soft. Gukurahundi was a very serious issue, 20 000 lives is no joke, and to just play it down just like that; I’m not happy. There’s also issues of impunity. These criminals, sponsored by the Government, they always go out and cause a lot of distress. They murder people and so forth, and afterwards they are then exonerated and a law is passed so that amnesty is granted to them. So, this constant impunity, going back to days of Ian Smith, this Government also is guilty of impunity. The wrong and evil things where people are excused and let to go scot-free when they have actually done a lot of harm to the nation and to certain individuals and even been involved in murder and gross corruption.

Violet: Now, with what you are saying some people have said that the Church is trying to confront wrong without offending the Mugabe regime. Do you agree with this?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: In a way Ya, as Church we are too soft. In such a way that I wonder whether we are going to make any headway. But you see I think perhaps we are so desperate; desperately looking for a solution that we are ready to go two miles rather than one mile with the Government, but I don’t know whether it works. What really worries me is that Mugabe is an awfully arrogant and heartless person. And, for him, what matters is power and filling his own pockets with money and that even as Church, as we come up to him, I wonder whether he is going to listen because for him, where his power base is threatened he is not going to go along but where his position is strengthened he will go along.

Violet: But you know, Archbishop, the last time we spoke just a couple of weeks ago you said half a loaf is better than nothing and that we should give this initiative a chance, and you were one of the people who signed the document, together with people like Walter Kamba, Marvellous Mhloyi. And, people ask that is it possible that the Mugabe regime is using some of the Church leaders and using some people who are respected and wanting to associate themselves with people who are critical, to legitimise the regime and to legitimise this initiative and you are being drawn or sucked into this. Would you agree with those sentiments?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Yes, I am beginning to agree with that because you see when I looked at the document, the original document was quite a great effort you know. And we were trying to follow the Kairos document done by the Churches in South Africa. Where when things really were absolutely hopeless and no one knew what next in regards to the Apartheid government and the ANC fighting with other Nationalist parties, also engaged in fighting for justice and peace to come to South Africa. Then in that situation the Churches said we can’t just stand around and fold our hands; let’s put out a document where the concerns of everybody are reflected. And so we were trying to put out that.

But, I was hoping that this was going to be our document not that the Government should now poke its nose and remove something like eight or nine pages from our document and soften; completely soften it so that they will always appear innocent. I’m extremely disenchanted having seen how they’ve done a lot of damage to our original document.

Violet: But these pages that were removed; the eight or nine pages that you mentioned. Were they removed after or before you signed the document and had you had a chance to look at it?

"The sad thing is that this Morgan Tsvangirai he is also become very Mugabe-istic, in a sense in that he takes MDC as his party that only he must lead it"

ARCHBISHOP PIUS NCUBE

Archbishop Pius Ncube: They were removed after we signed the document. We agreed as I was saying that it was a hush, hush job. We came together as Churches and were reading – how can you, Violet, even if you are very intelligent, how can you read through a fifty page A4 closely typed document in three hours? How can you do it? I mean this is meant to be a very crucial document, it’s supposed to reflect some of the most important national issues, it’s supposed to be a document to deal with life or death issues and we just rushed through it in three hours from 10.00 up to 1.00.

I did point out that I was extremely displeased. We were supposed to have got that document, discuss it with other fellow clergy. We just gathered as Bishops; we had never even talked with other fellow priests or other lay people and then we gathered and approved it. Nevertheless, it was quite a fine document, reflecting some of the crucial issues. But they go and cut it down and they remove eight or nine pages so that it’s softened. I’m extremely displeased. That’s not our document, it’s a Government document.

Violet: So now that you feel disenchanted, do you still support the initiative?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: I do Violet because I mean the people of Zimbabwe are suffering so much Violet, honestly we just don’t know what to do. There’s so much suffering Violet here that honestly if it was said ‘can someone offer himself to die so that we can remain and return to normalcy’, I would go and give myself to the Lord and pray and be ready to be killed to bring normalcy. Honestly, so many innocent people are suffering Violet here and these are the young people. I mean, I’m 60, so OK I’ve had the bulk of my life. But look at the youngsters; they have to run away, they go to South Africa because they can’t live normally here

A youngster cannot buy a house, a house costs so much here, no one can possibly afford a house, even a house in Mbare or Makakoba, the poorest suburbs, it’s so costly. These youngsters cannot get married unless they have a bit of money. Unless they do mapoto you know, and they can’t get educated with the ever-increasing prices that are there. Half the children in primary and secondary schools are no longer in school in Zimbabwe. Things are closing down. The medical services are hopeless here; specialists have left; the hospital equipment has broken down.

Often we have electricity black outs every day, something like two or three hours blackouts during which time everything is put to risk including incubators and so on. So we are in such dire straits that we are looking for every way to bring about peace and normalisation. We are no longer looking for the idealistic democracy. We can’t anyway; a man Mugabe has no idea about what democracy is, he’s an absolute dictator; a most shameful one. So, in such a situation where the people are at risk. So in such a situation where we are facing a life or death situation, we are looking for a way out to save the lives of the people. We have murderers here and they don’t care about the lives of the people, so we are trying to look for every way, including soft ways.

Violet: That’s what I was going to say…

Archbishop Pius Ncube: I …

Violet: That’s what I was going to ask, you know, it seems the Church is in a very difficult position and you’ve just painted a very bleak picture

Archbishop Pius Ncube: It is yes.

Violet: Now some say being critical hasn’t really made an impact and being soft hasn’t helped either. Now what other options are there really for the Church? What can the Church do?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: The trouble is that the Church is divided, right, left and centre, they are divided. Whether you look at EFZ on its own; it’s divided. You look at ZCC; they are divided. You look at ZCBC; they are divided and so because they are divided it’s very hard and Mugabe uses that division to his advantage. It’s very, very hard to come up with a, we hardly make an impact. We should have taken the chance to make an impact by standing together. I mean, the Churches in Zambia they stood together against Kaunda, against Chiluba. The Churches in Malawi, they stood together against Banda and then later Maluzi wanted a third term and they said ‘no’.

But here we are paling on both shoulders and so Mugabe is only too glad; divide and conquer; that’s his principle. So in view of that it’s really difficult to see any option because if we were united we would stand together and remove this government through popular uprising and a peaceful uprising. But, because we are so divided we are looking for every possible way; whether through prayer or by persuasion or by inviting fellow Churches outside the country to discuss with them possible ways. It’s not easy to find the options because we are dealing with people here who are lawless.

Violet: And some also ask that do you think Mugabe is creating a platform for peace talks with this initiative, because some believe that he does not want to preside over peace talks with the MDC because he doesn’t want to be seen to be too weak and is now creating an environment where there is debate with this initiative. Would you agree with this?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Oh yes, yes. Well he’s such a trickster most likely he’d have it that way, Ya, I would agree with that. I mean we had Bishop Njongonkulu Ndungane, the successor of Desmond Tutu coming; the Archbishop of Cape Town, the Anglican. He came over to Mugabe and Mugabe kept saying ‘Yes, yes, we want mediation, yes, we want peace’. But we know he’s not interested in peace because when it came to real talks he never got to the nitty gritty issues of MDC because what Mugabe wants to do is just to swallow them up so that they become part of Zanu PF. He doesn’t want the kind of sharing of power; he’s far from that.

Violet: And Archbishop, do you think there are co-relations between the re-unification talks between the MDC factions and the launching of this document?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Uhh, I’m not sure, it’s possible. I mean I think there are some Church men who are trying to encourage unity and there are a lot of civic society, a lot of non-governmental organisations that are in favour of peace. They see that the division of the MDC it only made Zanu PF stronger in its dictatorship. So it’s possible, I don’t know what all is going on in talks between the two MDCs and who initiated them. But a lot of people are anxious that Zanu PF should stop its bullying and for us to weaken their bullying, if the MDC is strong then their bullying tactics become weak.

Violet: And also on the issue of the MDC, do you think this re-unification or these unity talks, so called unity talks are about bringing personalities together or its about the core issues in the struggle which is removing Mugabe as you said earlier?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: You mean in the case of the MDC?

Violet: In the MDC

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Ya I think they are dealing partly with the personality issues and partly with the core issues. The sad thing is that this Morgan Tsvangirai he is also become very Mugabe-istic, in a sense in that he takes MDC as his party that only he must lead it. Because I know that they went around harassing people who were a threat to him. They were harassed, and shjamboked and striped naked at Harvest House there, I know it. And so, then, it also was felt that he doesn’t always follow the constitution, where it doesn’t suit him he just overrules his Council. So this is quite a sad thing so in view of that it means that they have to deal with core issues but so often, I understand he tries to ignore the other faction. He wants to put himself up as The MDC; the others are non existent. So these are the issues.

So I’m not quite sure really what they are dealing with but I think they are trying to deal with both the personalities and also the core issues which divided the MDC. MDC must also examine itself, I mean, OK at present there’s no other real strong party that we can vote for, so those who are really pro-democracy they will vote for MDC but it doesn’t mean that we should say ‘yes, yes’ to everything that’s going on there, right? Things that are incorrect and evil, we can criticise constructively right? I mean MDC has a lot of wonderful things in it, but, I mean I hate that attitude of ‘I’m the owner of this Party’. Like Mugabe, he thinks he’s the owner of Zanu PF. He’s not the owner of Zanu PF. Zanu PF is meant to be a vehicle to bring about good living conditions for the people, because any political party is important in so far as it helps the people to attain their ends and to attain their livelihoods and get their basics. When a party fails to deliver that, it must just get out. The same with MDC. They are not there forever. If they fail to deliver they will find themselves getting out.

Violet: But others would also say what about the Mutambara faction, it doesn’t seem to be doing much?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: They are, ya. The thing is that actually there is not much that’s published about the other faction. But I know that they were trying to get the memorandum of understanding between the two of them. But I heard that there were three from the Tsvangirai faction and three from Mutambara faction and they got an agreement on certain things. For instance that certainly they would have to share 50/50 the vehicles rather than quarrel and fight each other. But, I heard that now when the Mutambara faction accepted that, the Tsvangirai faction wouldn’t accept, they didn’t come forward. I mean, OK, it’s always necessary to compromise. I mean, Morgan Tsvangirai is partly to blame for the division of MDC; he over-rode the decision of his Council. His Council had decided by 33 votes to 31 in favour of the Senate, and he said they should vote. If you allow them to vote then you must respect the vote; not just override. He is partly responsible.

Violet: But then there are others who would then say is it not time, you know, to let it go and move on and try to find ways…

Archbishop Pius Ncube: It is yeah, it’s time to move on, but unfortunately there’s pride again. Just like this pride that we are in with regards to Zanu PF. A lot of people are frustrated in Zanu PF, for instance some young people, I hear they are frustrated. Because all these old timers like Mugabe they are sticking, clinging to positions and young people have no say and the future belongs to young people. They are not even ashamed, I mean a man who is 82 years old should be ashamed and step down and give room to the young people; not to be clinging. He has had his time. But then this is the danger that the MDC is getting into. You have a few people at the top up there and the others are not listened. I mean let’s always be ready for criticism. There’s no place where we grow without criticism, including in the Church. I often ask my priests to evaluate and to write their criticism, things they are not happy with in the Church or with my administration. It’s very painful to be criticised but that’s the only way forward. How are we going to grow without allowing ourselves to be evaluated and to be told what makes people unhappy.

Violet: Alright. Now, so a final word Archbishop Pius Ncube. You know, Zimbabwe is a country that is burning and so in your view what do you think is the way forward, the Church has launched this discussion document.

Archbishop Pius Ncube: My hope is that all the stakeholders will realise that we are dealing with, I mean, they will have in mind the good; the common good for every person in Zimbabwe and that therefore people should give up their arrogant positions and say ‘what can best serve the people’ and then launch into and move towards a peaceful solution where people can at least live even if we might not get every thing that we want. If at least people can live.

You see for instance, the Unity Accord in 1987 agreed between ZAPU and Zanu PF the whole idea there was ok let’s concentrate on what gives life, let’s not take hard lines. They were taken down in the negotiation something like 13 times and the Catholic Church was involved and the Catholic Commission for Justice and Peace. And, finally the Unity Accord was achieved. Well, it’s true that they swallowed up ZAPU and ZAPU lost its properties and what have you; there were a lot of injustices that happened. But at least the whole idea was well we rather that than the killing of 20 000 innocent civilians which Zanu PF carried out here in Matabeleland.

Let’s rather come to a solution where at least we can be alive. We can preserve life rather than be at each other’s throats our lives our threatened by hunger and inability to pay for hospital fees and all the services just break down gradually and people cannot live on their salaries; even professional people. A lot of people suffer. Even those who are backing the present lawless system, they suffer. There’s so much discomfort, there’s so much depression, and so, my hope is that we get at least to a compromise solution where people can at least breathe. Not in this hothouse where everything becomes more and more senseless.

The only sense that is there for people like Mugabe is that ‘Oh at least I remain in power and at least I haven’t lost power’. But, like Mutasa said; this is the attitude of Zanu PF; you can sacrifice life to power. It doesn’t matter, as Mutasa said, if half the Zimbabweans die, as long as we remain with those that support us. So, I’m saying OK can we find a way where people can continue to live even if we don’t get everything that we bargained for.

Violet: OK, thank you very much Archbishop Pius Ncube.

Archbishop Pius Ncube: Thanks Violet.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme. Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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