Interview Part 2: Prof Moyo and Thornycroft

Interview Part 2: Prof Moyo and Thornycroft

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• Interviewe Part 2: Masamvu and Prof Mukasa

• Interview Part 1: Masamvu and Prof Mukasa

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• Interview: Archbishop Pius Ncube

• Part 2: Bishops on Zimbabwe We Want

• Part 1: Bishops on The Zimbabwe We Want

• Interview: Thabitha Khumalo

• Interview Part 3: Kagoro and George Ayittey

• Interview Part 2: Kagoro and George Ayittey

• Interview Part 1: Kagoro and George Ayittey

• Interview Part 2: Eric Bloch

• Interview Part 1: Eric Bloch

• Interview Part 6: Madhuku, Prof Ncube and Biti

• Interview Part 5: Madhuku, Prof Ncube and Biti

• Interview Part 4: Madhuku, Prof Ncube and Biti

• Interview Part 3: Madhuku, Ncube and Biti

• Interview Part 2: Madhuku, Ncube, Biti

• Interview Part 1: Madhuku, Ncube and Biti

• Trudy Stevenson: Under attack

• Gabriel Chaibva: Tsvangirai seeks unity with Zanu PF

• INTERVIEW Part 3: Raftopoulos, Moyo and Robertson

• Leaked: MDC proposals for resolution of Zim crisis

• INTERVIEW Part 2: Moyo, Raftopoulos and Robertson

• INTERVIEW Part 1: Moyo, Raftopoulos and Robertson

SW Radio Africa's Violet Gonda talks with Professor Jonathan Moyo, Journalist Peta Thornycroft for the programme, Hot Seat:

Broadcast on Tuesday, January 2, 2007

Click HERE for first Hot Seat interview with Jonathan Moyo on the media

Violet: On the programme Hot Seat we bring you a teleconference with foreign correspondent Peta Thornycroft (pictured on the right) and Independent MP and former Information Minister Professor Jonathan Moyo (on the left). Today, we are discussing the issue of the media situation in Zimbabwe , we will also take a look at how the draconian legislation, largely attributed to Professor Jonathan Moyo has had a negative impact on the media situation in Zimbabwe . I first asked Peta Thornycroft why the Zimbabwe story has gone flat in the international media.

Peta: Because people are expecting change. Journalists write about change OK, and Zimbabwe has great opposition in that story. Just think; if you actually go back and you think of it that in September, 9/11 2001, that happened sort of a year or just two years after the MDC was formed, it had to contend with that. But, because people thought change was coming, because there was violence, because there was visual on the television screens, it became a big story - it was a world story. There are virtually no visuals now. There are no television crews covering this story. And, while I understand this from the international news point of view; I understand why they are not covering it and I don’t argue with it because there is no hard news.

I am very critical of SABC TV because it’s on their background, they had crooked coverage, sorry, unbalanced coverage, I thought in the 20002 Presidential Elections and since then they are hardly ever there. They have a local stringer. They will send a whole team, a whole crew to Equador, to Venezuala, they will spend a great deal of money, and television costs a great deal of money, to all sorts of places in the world, but in their next door, they won’t go and I accept it is hard for journalists to cover Zimbabwe thanks to Jonathan’s legislation. We find it very difficult.

Those of us who have survived; without accreditation we’ve got canny, we’re careful, but we don’t take our cameras and the moving camera’s when they come in, they do occasionally come in from very brave people, they have to skirt around, and of course, we don’t get access to Zanu PF. So, to be balanced in a story is extremely difficult. So it’s too difficult for journalists to go into Zimbabwe because of the fear of getting arrested.

And the second point is change is not happening so there’s no hard news and it’s very hard to do the humanitarian stories there without them being extremely repetitive.

Violet : But you know some will still ask why it’s hard to get the visuals, you know out there when there are still a few foreign correspondents in Zimbabwe. Thousands are starving, there is political unrest. How come Zimbabwe is no longer what they would describe or others would say, a ‘sexy’ story when the statistics on the ground demand that it should be covered?

Peta: I think that the Western Foreign press has done those stories. I can think of my colleagues who have repeatedly; once every six weeks or so, or say the New York Times have sneaked into the country and done those stories, I do think the Western press – you can’t continue writing the same story even if the characters change because people, the readers, who you have to think about, get bored, they’ve read that before.

What I am absolutely shocked about is that SABC, who can get accreditation and will not therefore be arrested when they take out their camera, SABC TV I’m saying, do not go in there.

I think that despite everything, the Western press has really tried on the humanitarian stories, but, Violet, you can’t take out a camera in Harare unless you are behind closed doors. You can’t do it! You will have somebody from the CIO or an informer who wants to make a bit of money that afternoon who is going to phone his superior and the next thing is you are done and so it is extremely hard to cover it. And, the visuals are important, the words are fine but, you know, how do people read story? They look at the headline first and then they look at the picture. The picture is the second most important thing and the words, I’m afraid, come last.

So television is absolutely vital. It’s the same with Radio. Radio can do so much but without the visuals the story doesn’t happen. And, I’m afraid to say until there is news, i.e. change, whatever that change may be, but change that can challenge what’s happening in Baghdad, yesterday what’s happening with Hamas, what’s happening with the spy, the dead spy in London, what’s happening in Afghanistan, what’s happening in Somalia or Darfur, Zimbabwe is going to come short. But, you know, the ones who really should be doing it are the Region, and they don’t.

Violet: And Professor Moyo, Peta said this is thanks to your legislation. Now as the former Information Minister do you agree that you were responsible for the creation of media controls that have made work for journalists very difficult?

Jonathan: I don’t think its media control that determines the story. What we have here is a story that was over ‘sexed- up’, it has lost sex appeal and other things are happening elsewhere and there’s no interest. But, if you look at what is happening today, including this discussion, as the succession of Mugabe becomes an everyday issue in serious ways, and as that generates interest, activity and even opposition from within ZANU PF, you will see the story coming back to international screens and front pages. Just today, the Annual Conference is one of the headline items on BBC International Television. I think it’s because the actors on the ground, the situation, you know, killed the story. You do not get a story because of rules; whether you can or cannot carry a camera and so forth. I don’t think it is true even though I know that the law in question does not prevent anyone from doing that. But, I also know that the implementation of these laws has taken on a life of its own and people; the Mahoso’s of this world; are making rules under the cover of the legislation on a daily basis.

But, the bottom line is it’s the politics of the country that determines whether there is a story or not. How can there be a story when the opposition is dead and is doing nothing? I mean is that story in itself an exciting story? If the politics of the country change for the better, and I think this is what Peta was also saying, and, on that, I agree with her, unless there is a new dramatic development there is no reason to expect a story because people lose interest.

Not only the international media. I think what is actually much more instructive about your question, if you look at it much more critically, is that you will find it’s not just about the media losing interest in the Zimbabwean story. Many activists have lost interest in their own participation. Many people who used to even fund the Opposition are no longer doing that and they think this is a hopeless cause, they are looking for something else to happen. And yes, we have seen elsewhere in history around the world that something does eventually happen and the story comes up again.

Violet: But still do you agree that you did an effective job because if we were to look at the domestic coverage of the story there is no interest because journalists are not able to film or to report freely even to ensure that the general public would get informed?

Jonathan: No, but I think if you are going to make that kind of an argument, you should let me, or draw my attention to a particular regulation which says they must not do that. I don’t know of anything in the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy which says people must not carry cameras and they should not carry note books or pens -

Peta : Can I interrupt?

Jonathan: or report freely.

Peta : Can I interrupt?

Violet: Sure Peta.

Peta: I have applied for accreditation, I can’t remember if it’s for four or five years. I apply, I pay my fifty dollars, I fill in my forms at Mahoso’s office. He writes me a funny letter once a year but I never get accreditation. And we are in the majority of those left. The Wire Services, two of the Wire Services have accreditation. But, the hard news daily sloggers amongst us don’t have accreditation. Every time I go out of town, and I go out of town a lot, I am terrified that someone out there from the CIO, as I said, I agree, this isn’t your law, but that is the climate that has been created. I can’t get accreditation and I’ve never been able to get accreditation.

I walked into Mozambique in October and went into the Frelimo Congress, they didn’t even ask me for a letter from my employer. They just took my picture, put a card around my neck and I was accredited. It is incredible you know when we have somebody like Nicholas Van Hoogstraten, a convicted criminal with an appalling reputation who has to arrange for accreditation for Channel Four to come to Zimbabwe.

Why were Channel Four coming under cover to do a story that they hadn’t declared? They are coming because it’s impossible to work legally in Zimbabwe without attracting attention. And, the law was changed, and I’ve heard your arguments Jonathan and we’ve had many discussions on this. But, a climate was created where it became virtually impossible unless you’re ingenious and you’ve got nerves of steel and a determination to carry on. I would have left Zimbabwe years ago. I felt an obligation as a Zimbabwe citizen to go and cover the story because I felt it was my duty to do so.

And, that’s not how journalism works. When you work like that you make mistakes, you certainly don’t get balance from Zanu PF. You phone up Zanu PF; in fact I have never yet done a story, in the five and a half years I have covered this time round, without phoning somebody from Zanu PF looking for a comment. We’ve all made mistakes because of that situation; no question we’ve made mistakes. And I’m not sure it was a ‘sexed-up’ story in the beginning. I think in 2000, I wasn’t here in 2000, but a man with Mugabe’s reputation and longevity in power and up comes this pip-squeak Opposition and does so incredibly well, it’s that news, news, it’s about change. I think it was a real story.

Violet: Are you still in Zimbabwe Peta?

Peta: I’m in Johannesburg Violet. I’ve been more and more out of Harare over the last year and I’ve been travelling in the Region and I will be more and more out of Zimbabwe unless there is change because actually I can’t make a living in Zimbabwe.

Violet: And how many Foreign Correspondents are left in Zimbabwe ?
Peta: You know I’m not going to say. You know what, I don’t want to name anyone or count anything; you know who the accredited guys are. There are two, there are certainly two wire services that are accredited and SABC TV is accredited and Al Jazeera are accredited, the Chinese are accredited and there’s a couple of others who are quite surprised they are accredited but they don’t, they are not very much in the front line.

There’s others who like me, carry on, but it’s really hard to do and I know perfectly well because I’ve been with enough foreign journalists who’ve sneaked across the border and I’ve seen them operating. They are terrified of being in Zimbabwe , terrified!

Violet: Now Professor Moyo, as Peta says, this is the climate that was created when you were Information Minister. Now, how would you suggest a way out of this mess?

Jonathan: I unfortunately I couldn’t hear much of what Peta was saying. The line is not good at all. What I would say is that I know there have been controversial applications of the law and I know that even if the law was not there, the particular one, the situation would still be like this, probably even worse.

Peta: I agree.

Jonathan: But I also know that there’s something that has happened about the story itself which has created problems. I have some friends or colleagues, people I know, who work for various international news organisations who tell me that when they file stories on Zimbabwe these days they cannot be certain that they will be published or used by the broadcasters. And, when I ask them why, it is because generally Zimbabwe is not an important story any more. I am not too sure what really the actual reason for that is but I am aware that it doesn’t have as much appeal or interest as it did a few years ago. But you ask about the way forward. I think really the way forward will be found out of these developments that are the subject of our discussion today. We are finally beginning to see the sort of things we should have seen long time ago. Namely, some positive reaction by Zanu PF people.

In a country like ours it is impossible to move forward when leaders in the majority party or ruling party , when members of that party act like there is no wrong that is going on around them. But, when they begin to ask fundamental questions about the state of the economy, the state of the country, and, more importantly, the state of their party, whether their party follows it’s own rules, its own constitution, whether their own party is well led. When they begin to ask those questions you see movement and you begin to see new alliances, new progressive linkages in society and the story becomes a substantive story as well.

And, I believe that after taking Zanu PF support for granted for some 26 years, finally, Mugabe has his back against the wall from his own party. And, I believe 2007 is going to be a watershed year. And I am almost certain that if Mugabe insists on his plan to merely use an amendment of the Constitution or a vote of Parliament to extend his rule, he is going to be opposed in the first instance by his own party, and he will not get away with it. And, that will open new doors including for media space in Zimbabwe.

Peta: Good.

Violet: And Professor Moyo, before I go to Peta, is it not certain though that the Central Committee will adopt this proposal and that also once it gets to Parliament because ZANU PF is in the majority in Parliament, they will amend the Constitution. Is that not a given?

Jonathan: No, it’s not a given, not at all. It used to be. It is not going to be. Remember that this particular proposal went through the Politburo on the 12 th of December and on the 13 th of December it went to the Central Committee, and on the 14 th of December it went to the National Conference and without any success. And, to now expect it to succeed after going through Provinces then back to the Central Committee is an expensive proposition. And, I think that it’s important for Zimbabweans to understand the dynamics and structures of Zanu PF that is part of the story.

And, in this case, we can see clearly something new developing. Mugabe and his securocrats would have wanted this proposal to be passed as a resolution yesterday. They wanted to pass it just as a resolution and then that resolution would now be sent to the appropriate government organs for implementation. They did not get that. There is a story. But, I tell you, watch how this story is going to be told by the media. Many will ignore it, perhaps because they don’t understand what’s going on or because they are no longer interested in Zimbabwean stories, and others are going to distort it. And yet, you have something really, really important. How else do you expect those Zanu PF people who succeeded in resisting this yesterday to be encouraged if the media is not going to play it’s role?

So, I do expect the Central Committee to be fortified and resist it as long as the content remains the same. But, more significantly, I am almost certain that for the first time this kind of proposal which would be intended to extend Mugabe’s Executive Presidency by another two years outside the popular will of the people, will not see the light of day in Parliament and that might be the graveyard of this proposal. It simply cannot pass in Parliament as long as it is understood for what it is namely, a proposal to extend his rule outside the democratic process as opposed to a proposal to harmonise Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government elections. I am sure that both the Zanu PF Central Committee and the Parliament of Zimbabwe would not entertain this, especially because it is clear to everyone now that there will not be any kind of economic recovery. And, on the economic front, people are suffering and that is why the economy has emerged as the largest opposition to this Government.

People are suffering and that is not a matter of mere politicking, it’s a reality. Many Zimbabweans today go to bed without having a single decent meal and there is no sign that anyone who is in charge of the affairs of this country is worried about that. When they met in Goromonzi they did not show any concern, they just indulged in their own celebrations; over eighty beasts slaughtered and so forth.

But, there was no systematic discussion of the state of this economy and any indication that people understand what needs to be done. And, one of the things that clearly needs to be done, and this is without prejudice to Mugabe or anyone who supports him, but clearly, the turnaround of this country is impossible as long as Mugabe remains in Office and we would expect a responsible Ruling Party to recognise that.

And, I am convinced that there are growing numbers of people in Zanu PF who are finally coming home to this realisation and that’s why I am sure, this, for the first time, is exactly the kind of proposal that cannot pass the Central Committee or certainly not Parliament. Certainly not Parliament. Mugabe is going to have in his hands a royal battle like he has never seen before if he persists. This is absolutely and utterly self destructive, I can assure you about that.
Violet: And Peta your final thoughts about this? Is this going to be self-destructive as Professor Moyo believes?

Peta: Oh I hope he’s right. (Laughs) I just hope Jonathan’s right. He knows far more about Zanu PF then I will ever know because he was part of it and I listen to him and I think it sounds so logical. I hope he’s right but Zanu PF doesn’t always act in its own best interest. If it hadn’t done Murambatsvina last year they would probably all be going on holiday to Spain and Portugal right now because they would have had travel sanctions lifted.

So, I sometimes wonder about the movers and shakers in Zanu PF if they are ever able to make wise decisions. We wouldn’t be having to renew Sanctions, it would be a - the European Union wouldn’t have a problem in February, it would just drop them if it wasn’t for Murambatsvina. So I just hope Jonathan’s right, that’s all, so that the suffering can end.

Violet: But I’m sure for many it’s difficult to comprehend what’s happening in Zanu PF because you keep hearing that eight out of ten Provinces support Mugabe’s plans?

Peta : That’s because it’s not properly reported and I have to say this. This is a domestic story of massive importance. This is a domestic story. In fact I’ve written the story three times already for the foreign press and I’m quite sure …

Jonathan: I just have to point out that while I hear the questions and the doubt and I respect that, but, in this particular instance, please note that despite the eight provinces having moved the recommendation and brought it to the National Conference, the more significant point is that the Conference did not formally endorse that resolution. And, that is the first time we see this development within Zanu PF. Let us not downplay or underestimate the significance of that.

Peta: No, no, no. No, Jonathan I also think that the domestic press did not properly report …

Jonathan: It’s true

Peta: The eight provinces decision which was about harmonisation rather than about extending his term of office.

Jonathan : It’s true, Ya

Peta: So what I am saying to you is that from inside Zimbabwe, you know, you’ve got one newspaper, you’ve got the Independent - you’ve got two newspapers, and the Standard and then you’ve got a political pamphlet called The Zimbabwean.

And, clearly the Independent has really tried terribly hard and done extremely well over the exposé but there’s other stories, and you had a story published this week; a piece of analysis. But, you know what, that’s read by a few people in Harare mostly. 99% of people cannot afford to read the Independent, never see it. They are dependent, if they’ve got money for batteries for their radios to listen to ZBC.

Jonathan: Ya.

Peta: Violet should be airing this programme on ZBC, we should all be talking on ZBC not talking to London.

Jonathan: Oh no that cannot be denied, indeed that is the tragedy of our country and I know that’s what then causes Violet to say but we hold you responsible for it. Well, I wish really I had created a situation where what Peta is talking about now was possible because in the absence of vibrant discussion fora of the public nature, radio, television, newspapers, then the story will be buried and there will be mis-representation, distortions and outright omissions and that’s one thing which is really, really odd about Zimbabwe.

And that’s one thing about which it is immensely difficult to do anything and I suppose until we have some fundamental change of the political system we will remain with these constraints where here we are talking to Violet who is far away and the product is broadcast on Short Wave Radio, which the State is also jamming, and many people don’t get access to.

Violet: The discussion with Professor Jonathan Moyo and Peta Thornycroft will conclude next Tuesday.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme. Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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