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Interview Part 2: Margaret Dongo
SW Radio Africa's Violet Gonda talks with former Zimbabwe Union of Democrats leader Margaret Dongo for the Hot Seat programme. This is the second and final part of the interview:
Broadcast on Tuesday, February 13, 2007
Violet Gonda: In the programme Hot Seat, we bring you the final part of a discussion with former freedom fighter and politician, Margaret Dongo. We ended the discussion last Tuesday talking about the support base of the opposition in rural areas.
Last week, one website reported that Isaac Matongo, the national chairman of the Tsvangirai MDC, admitted at a rally recently that the opposition party may have lost past elections mostly because of poor support in the rural areas rather than just vote-rigging by Zanu PF.
According to the website, Matongo said people in the rural areas do not understand the battle they have against Mugabe and allegedly urged party supporters from urban areas to go and teach their relatives in the rural areas. As someone who has worked in the rural areas, Margaret Dongo knows about the issues of political empowerment and voter education. I first asked for her thoughts on Matongo’s admission.
Margaret Dongo: Let me first of all salute him and say he’s a man and a half and he’s now beginning to be a politician. You know, it’s rare for opposition to accept their mistakes, and that alone, that statement that he has made, I do respect him. And, I hope, now to me it says a clear light that now something has knocked the sense in their head that, have a look, let’s accept we have made our own problems, but, have a look, the problems, coming back to your question, the problems in the rural areas are to do with development.
You know, people in the rurals don’t usually live on air pies; promises. No. They just want to see something physical. They want to be attached. If they have a problem and tell you kuti we have x problem and if you come and you sympathize with them and you make an effort to give them ideas on how they can get out of the problem with or without the problem, that’s the greatest campaign. And, I’m glad that Matongo has actually seen it as a Chairman, and I think what they would need to do now is to go back to the rurals to address the problem that he has already identified.
Rigging; yes, but have a look, every country, even in America, you know I stayed in America and I’ve been wondering what happened in Florida. Until I left nobody was ever able to give me an answer. I witnessed the Macedonian elections where there were 29 political parties contesting - a lot of things happened. Yes, elections are rigged. You know, you look at a Party like Zanu PF, they have tasted the power, they enjoyed the power and they never, they don’t want to be out of power, and, you know what they will do? They will make sure they will maintain power at all costs and this is why you find at times there is violence, because, they just want to maintain that power.
And, as opposition people have to sit down and strategise and say ‘OK fine, how can we get it away’. Banda never gave up power. Kaunda never gave up power. Moi never gave up power. Moi, actually, in Moi we had the same scenario where there was FORD. You were here, you were still in Zimbabwe. FORD came out hot but I’m telling you; the first election; second election they were diluted, there was a split.
But those people were able to do a comeback and realise their mistakes because they went in for the Presidential elections and there were many candidates; their votes were more than the Moi votes. So, they realised their mistakes that they were putting power before the people, which is happening here in Zimbabwe. It’s about power, power struggle. So that’s the price of power what we are going through right now.
Violet: It’s also been said there is a need for a strategic change especially when fighting a strong system like Zanu PF. What about the element of fear, how do you get rid of that?
Margaret Dongo: Yes, true, I don’t want to refuse. Fear is there, even in the rural, it is there. I remember I went to an area which I don’t mention because I don’t want them to be visited again, and it’s not Chipinge actually it’s around Zvishavane. And this man was giving a testimony and said to me ‘Mrs. Dongo, I’m not interested to hear about any politics, opposition or Zanu PF’.
Then I said ‘why?’ Then he said during his time he went to opposition, he was one of the greatest supporter of MDC. He was beaten in front of his kids, he was made to take off his clothes and he had to eat his whatever, I’m not going to talk about it. And, he will never forget this experience, and then after this, he also spoke to his Party and nobody came to his rescue. Fine. And this is where I am saying you know such people would need a continuous support; they would need to be strengthened every time.
You need people to sympathise with them, you need people to counsel them, you need people to make them understand kuti the struggle is not easy. I’m telling you, the difference between today’s struggle and the liberation that we waged is that the previous struggle we were using guns. And, the current struggle, it’s even worse and it’s even heavier and painful because we are having to use brains. Brains, if they get strained, they don’t function very well. So that’s the difference that we have.
Violet: But how can the progressive forces come up with a strategy which will attract or motivate the rural mass to join hands?
Margaret Dongo: Ya, my thinking is it’s possible. I think we need to draw, as I have said, we have got a lot of intelligent people in this country; I think we need to draw like-minded people from all sectors of the society. We need those people that are the committed cadres, a team of people which is committed enough to take up the challenge, and we don’t have to discriminate anyone. We need to start even negotiating with those people that are in Zanu PF, already in opposition, there is a discourse which is there.
It’s obvious, things are not well in the Ruling, there are people who share the same views with us as opposition but they don’t want to be seen on the open. But, I think it’s time we should be creating discussions with those people and see how best we can come up with a front where we can say we have people that can lead the challenge. So it’s possible, we have the people here. And, I think people have to come together regardless of colour, creed, whatever it is, even whatever political party. The common agenda that we have here today is the current system has to go. We need an overhaul of the entire government from the head to the tail. That’s what we need.
Violet: And in terms of democratic forces, would you agree that one of the main problems the opposition has, or the pro-democracy has is dealing with set-backs and adversity?
Margaret Dongo: Yes, that’s a major one and this is why we are talking about the history to say you know, history will always repeat itself. We are talking about the rebellion; you know it happened in Zanu PF. We are talking about Nhari, we are talking about Vashandi, we are talking about all the encounters that people went through in the liberation struggle, and we are talking about the two factions that happened in the last year.
And, you know, dealing with these problems has become a major problem in the opposition movement; one: there is no tolerance, there is no tolerance. And, they have also been affected by the politics of personality. You know, very soon, I’m not surprised, I would agree with people that think some political parties are run like personal entities, and this is exactly what is happening. That’s the major problem that we have. And I think it’s high time that the opposition should come together and begin to agree to say we need to have what we call an intra-party democracy. Democracy within their own set-up, because even the split was not necessary if there was democracy; if there was intra-party democracy.
That split I’m telling you was not necessary, because that split, as far as I’m concerned, it was not a split in terms of ideas. It was a split in terms of power. We had split iri serious in terms of ideology in the struggle, but have a look, we were able to survive. Manje iyi, the split yandinoona iyi (the split that I see) the split has nothing to do with ideology, it has nothing to do with people at large. It’s about power sharing. So until and unless we agree kuti (that) the price of power will develop those set-backs, then we know how to deal with the whole thing, and the only solution to it is probably to go back on the drawing board and identify, learn to listen to other people, accept our mistakes.
Violet: And looking at the differences between the politics now and the politics before, does it make the situation worse that unlike during the liberation struggle the enemy was Ian Smith but now it’s a Nationalist?
Margaret Dongo: Yes it’s a pity that it is happening that way. It didn’t have to be that way. You know, you didn’t need to be exploited by people of your own blood, your own colour. It’s actually the most painful thing. In fact, I was watching a slavery film about Kunte Kinte last night and a lot of memories came back into my mind about what we went through in the liberation struggle and how many people we have lost. It’s not proper to be what it is because it’s so painful to be exploited.
But, when you talk about exploitation you know mal-administration and dictatorship, it knows no colour. People put power before, you know, politicians are just the same. It’s like they are born by the same mother, they put power before the people. Before they get to power they are peoples’ choice, they are peoples’ servants, when they get into power they are there to govern the people. They don’t even think of governing together with the people but they actually dictate all the ideas to them. Like if you see what has happened in the last Zanu PF Conference.
I was surprised when I was going round and I was talking to very senior people in the rurals. ‘But you guys how can you pass on a thing which is damaging in terms of yourself, the whole nation and also even your own community. You agree to say you want to prolong the elections to 2010, can’t you see the damage?’ And guess what they said, ‘Mai Dongo, we don’t even know’. They are the individual leaders who want to appease the President and they just go to them to say ‘the people have said this’. And that’s where I’m saying you know we opposition we are still in bed, we should have used that opportunity, even now we can still use it because the Central Committee has not approved it. We need to go back and explain to the povo what effects it has in their life; what it entails.
Violet: Does the rural population know that there are these plans to harmonize the elections and even move the Presidential election?
Margaret Dongo: They don’t know, I’m telling you! I’ve been to – yes Violet to be honest, some don’t know, I’m telling you, I’ve been to several places. Anyone who wants to challenge me I can go with him or her and I don’t see anyone, that’s typical of Margaret and I don’t want our people to be abused. I was even asking my Headman – what does he understand about the 2010 elections? He doesn’t know. He says ‘takango mirira vakuru takanzi tichauya techitaurirwa kana vabva kumusangano’ - you know they will come and tell us what is to be done when they come from the Congress. Can’t you see kuti that’s the worst exploitation that you are doing to human beings? Can’t you see that’s how the rural people are being undermined? Can’t you see that’s how the rural people are being abused by their own government? You have abused the rural people in many ways.
Have a look, before this country used to feed from the peasant farmers in the rural and today the rural people cannot get enough implements, enough resources, enough inputs to feed themselves. And, at the end of the day they will go again to drain their maize, send to GMB, they give them peanuts. And yet, during the liberation struggle we used to say don’t exploit the masses ‘Hanzi tisatore zvinhu zvevanhu tisina kuzvi bhadhara, handiti?’ (Don’t take people’s produce if you have not paid for it).
And I tell you, all Ten Commandments from the liberation struggle, they have been broken by the same people. If you look at the cost of the maize, the lending cost of the imported maize, my dear I’m not going to say the price, and you look at the money that is given to the rural people who are producing under very difficult conditions, and you say who is the exploiter? How can you, the big brains who are now in power, help exploit your people who put you in power? That’s being rubbish! That’s rubbish!
If you look at it, a person gets 30, 000 a tonne, and the lending cost; which I don’t want to mention; of imported maize is ten times that. Is that not being cruel!? And today you talk about abusing people - (Dongo starts singing) Taiti kuhondo - tisanetse vasungwa vatinenge tatora (we used to say during the war do not harass the captured prisoners).
And today what are we doing? We are abusing them. We beat them in the prisons. Hanzi bhadharai zvamunotenga nenzira dzakanaka. Bhadarai mutengo vacho nezvazviri? (Pay a fair price for the things that you buy) But look at how we are exploiting maproduce atiri kuona kupovo (But look at how we are exploiting the produce that we are getting from the poor people). So you see we have a lot to share with the rural people to convince them kuti (that) they are being abused.
Violet: And in general Amai Dongo, what about the issue of resources, how did the Nationalists do it during the liberation struggle because it seems to be one of the biggest problems for the opposition, you know, the lack of resources?
Margaret Dongo: You know, fine, it’s a very good question. Do you know our people during the liberation struggle, especially the rural people, made a lot of contributions, we actually fed from them, we were housed by them and in terms of clothing, the little money they were earning is the same money that was buying us clothing. Handiti mainzwa kuti gandanga haridye derere. (you would hear that - a liberation fighter does not eat okra). We used to eat whatever chickens; you know whatever the little they had. They used to contribute because they had something to share.
Now, as I had said earlier on, I talked about people having been dismantled economically, politically and socially. Now the povo has nothing to share anymore. It’s very difficult for opposition to go and appeal for support especially when it comes to the rural areas. They can’t get that monetary support because they are waiting to be supported themselves because they are living under a destitution situation.
Violet: Many groups in Zimbabwe including junior doctors, teachers have gone on strike demanding better working conditions. Now critics have said attempts by the opposition to organize peaceful demonstrations against the Mugabe regime have failed. Is it now up to angry workers to trigger street protests?
Margaret Dongo: I think workers have had enough. Workers I’m telling you have had enough. Workers, to some extent, I’m telling you, the labour movement in this country their feeling is that they have been betrayed because they have been used as sacrificial lambs. Because, at the end of the day, one, the government is exploiting them, the private sector is exploiting them as well, because they tell you ‘your government is not functional, we cannot trade, we have no money and the worker is not a priority’, but, they want to make sure that the companies are still functioning.
So the worker has been abused to the extent that now the worker would want to stand on his own. If you look at the prolonged strike by the Doctors, it has got a serious message to the government and to some of the Trade Union leaders. It has, because honestly if you look at Doctors and Teachers, the money that they are paid, it’s not enough to take a meal for the whole week. And you ask yourself ‘how are they surviving’. And the other question is ‘is the money going to be a solution?’ That’s the major question. No matter how much increment they have worked and how much they get, that’s not the thing that we would want.
We actually want to change the system, because for as long as you get that increment, Gono can print extra money and give them the money that they want and cause hyperinflation. It’s not about the money that we want, even if you freeze wages it’s better, freeze the wages and change the government that’s what we want! We want to create an environment where people would stand up and have a free and fair election. We want to have a situation where we have free media.
Have a look, I always enjoy when I am watching other televisions, politicians from different parties having a debate, arguing on national issues. Here you can’t have that happen, the TV is owned by Zanu PF - full stop! And here, even the media you have a paper which is pro Tsvangirai, you have a paper which is pro Mutambara and a paper which is pro Zanu PF and other people have no space, dear. So we still have a long way to go as far as politics is concerned in this country. And we need to take everyone on board, regardless of who you are.
Violet: You say unless the workers make a connection between poor working conditions and a poor political environment they won’t make any headway. So why is there no political spin on these demands?
Margaret Dongo: Have a look, you think they don’t? They have. They know it very well, they know where the problem is. Have a look, they have taken their role as Doctors, they have taken their part, this is why they have gone on strike. Everyone else who has felt the same thing has got to do likewise. They have already played their role they are showing people that things are not well, that’s a good indicator as far as I’m concerned.
For me the Doctors are passing on a message to other sectors. This is what is there, they are shedding light. They have actually co-coordinated the two things. They know where the problems are. If they didn’t know where the problems are they could have taken whatever little package they were given and gone back to work, but, they feel kuti that money is not enough to solve their problems. For as long as there are corrupt people administering, for as long as the system is not sustainable they will still come back to the same problem. Whatever money they are going to get today, whatever increment, it’s useless because the prices have skyrocketed and they know that the reason is that it’s because of the political.
Violet: On the other hand Zimbabweans have seen that the response of a regime that has no morals, always acts violently in order to secure legitimacy, so are protest marches against Robert Mugabe a waste of time?
Margaret Dongo: Not at all, it depends what you want to achieve through marches. You know, at times marches have to be complimented by certain things behind. You know you look at what people were looking at in Indonesia. You know there were marches which resulted in a change of government. It’s not only the marches that matter; there are a number of things that would be happening behind the scenes. So marches are not a solution, because even now people have fear and they are so tired, they are so poor because they want to run around and see whether they can take their kids to school. You can’t actually get the same - you can’t organize the same support like we used to do in 1998 when it comes to organising marches and so forth.
People are reluctant and some people have been discouraged and some people have lost confidence. It’s like we really need to build the whole opposition movement, we need to restore confidence of the opposition movement within our povo. That’s what we require. So, I’m telling you, marching, yes, but to what extent? It’s a component but you also need to have something happening behind the scenes, there has to be something happening.
There’s nobody who has marched to the State House in Washington and managed to get power away from Bush. And, the arguments in Britain about Tony Blair but there’s not been anyone who’s been able to march to 10 Downing Street and been able to push him out. So, when it comes to democracy there’s a process, there’s certain things that have to be followed, there’s no shortcut to democracy that’s what I want you to understand and that’s what we want to understand as people of Zimbabwe.
I think we should take that seriously. There is no shortcut, we can march but we can’t march into the State house. I’ve seen lots of people demonstrating, London and whatever country but they’ve never been able to go and pull a person that very day. There has to be something happening Violet, there has to be something, you have to build the masses, you have to make sure that you have the same thinking, the same approach and everything and things will work out.
Violet Gonda: Before we go Amai Dongo, a final word?
Margaret Dongo: My final word is dear, we have had enough of it, our mouths are full and I think we’ve been reduced to nothing, and I’ve no doubt there is a few majority which is actually enjoying the corruption and which is feeding fat on the corruption which is happening in this country. And I feel, and I am appealing to them - sense should knock into their heads. Honestly we need to come together and see how we can bring about a solution. I want to give them a reminder, which I always say to people. Whatever wealth you accumulate, you still leave it behind. Nobody was buried with that wealth. What is important, let’s create a good environment for the people of Zimbabwe; they have suffered enough!
You can be proud parking 10 Mercedes Benz which you get through different ways but there’s one child who is unable to pay Z$50 000 for school fees and why and it’s the same system where you are benefiting from. Let’s stand up and say ‘No’ and condemn corruption. Have a look, we can’t all be politicians, this is why in politics we call - there are allies and there are confidantes. Allow me to identify what I’m saying our allies are.
Allies are people who share the same views, the like-minded people, the people who have the strength to fight the political space. And confidantes are people who actually believe in a straight government, in a non-corrupt government, in a clean government, in a democratic government, and they can come in and give support without playing an active roll. Please, we know the confidantes and the allies are there, people should come together and give an end to the suffering that people are going through. Thank you very much.
Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme. Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com
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