Some observers have said there is a lot of similarity in the ideology of the two opposition factions in terms of how to remove the dictatorship. In part one Professor Mutambara said the enemy is not Morgan Tsvangirai and he stated that he is willing to work with him to bring about change in Zimbabwe.

If this is the case many have wondered why he chose to head up a second faction of the MDC.

We first asked Professor Mutambara if it would be correct to refer to the two factions as pro or anti senate – seeing as the original split in the MDC was based on a disagreement over the creation of a Senate by Robert Mugabe.

Arthur: Good question, but again, another misnomer. We are not pro-Senate. I mean, my position was very clear in my acceptance speech I was actually opposed to that Senate election. So describe us as pro-Senate is a misnomer. We are pro-democracy, we are pro Zimbabwe. We have gone beyond the Senate election. The issue is the management of that Senate election. It is the history of the party in the past five years; violence, intolerance, huh? Breaking of party constitutions.

October 12th was simply the last straw that broke the camel's back. It's not pro-Senate, anti-Senate; I told you - we are for jambanja as a tool of struggle. We are for participation as a tool of struggle. So we have gone beyond the pro-Senate debate to talk about values that are the foundation of the party; to talk about the vision we have for our country; to talk about the strategy of getting into power - start with governance and then coming to economic progress.

Violet: But Professor Mutambara, you know a lot of people ask 'why now?'. You know your colleagues also say there were a lot of undemocratic things that were happening in the MDC and actually blame Morgan Tsvangirai to a large extent, you know, for the violence; accusing him of dictatorial tendencies; surrounding himself with a kitchen cabinet, but surely, they should have dealt with these problems when they were happening. Why are we hearing about it now?

Arthur: I think you know the traditional approach has been our enemy is Mugabe; let's concentrate on fighting Mugabe; lets try to resolve our problems in-house, let's try to work together; let's resolve this internally and concentrate on the enemy. But however, people had to draw a line in the sand and say this is not sustainable. If we continue on this path of violence, lack of democracy, corruption and incompetent activities, we won't succeed in our fight against the dictator. Please remember that. We are not being philosophical about values; we are not being puritanical about values. We are saying that if the opposition party in Zimbabwe, the parties in Zimbabwe, do not resolve the issues of values, they will not succeed in their fight against the dictator.

So, people had to take a call and say to continue at this rate we are self destructing and we won't succeed. We won't have the moral authority to confront the dictator. We won't succeed in fighting the dictator. And, more importantly, even if we did succeed we would be worse than the dictator we are fighting. And, I gave you examples, it happened in Zambia, it happened in Malawi to a lesser extend. And we are saying that the Zimbabweans have an opportunity right now to make sure that when change does come it will have both form and substance. We are concentrating on the substance and content of the change.

Violet: Some of your lieutenants in your party have also been accused of showing dictatorial tendencies and the violence has also been said that it was also in your party. What do you say about that?

Arthur: That's why I said that the Zimbabwean problem is not Robert Mugabe the person. The Zimbabwean problem is a problem of culture. The ZANU PF culture; the ZANU PF way of doing things. This is pervasive in all organisations; in civil society, in the labour unions, in ZINASU, in NCA in MDC A and in MDC B. We are sick as a nation. The most important thing to do is to accept that we are sick as a nation and then seek remedies. What we need do is to identify a new value system that we have to build, that is different from the status quo value system.

It will take us ten years, it will take us five years to construct a new society, a new value system, but we must accept as a starting point that for twenty-six years we are cut from the same cloth. So, in our party we are working very vigorously to correct those misnomers. For example, zero tolerance towards violence; if of our people is implicated in violence our disciplinary measures will be engaged and we won't hesitate to fire and expel people from our party because of violence. Zero tolerance to violence, zero tolerance to corruption, zero tolerance to undemocratic practices. We are re-defining the society we want Zimbabwe to be in twenty years time.

Violet: What about other issues where people say you can't defeat the dictator if you are split? Do you see yourselves working with the party led by Morgan Tsvangirai?

Arthur: Very good question. We believe in the power of unity. We believe in working with all democratic forces in the country. That's why when we were elected we committed ourselves to unity. We expressed the need for the re-unification of all democratic forces. We extended an olive branch to our brothers to say 'let's work together; let's re-unify', and I personally committed to stepping down and allow for a new election. But, I must say the other side has spurned our hand of reconciliation. The other side has spurned our olive branch, so unity in terms of MDC A / MDC B is looking impossible now, not because of us but because of the other side.

Violet: You actually approached the Tsvangirai side?

Arthur: Of course. Of course we did, it was a public statement.

Violet: Saying?

Arthur: But let me move on and answer your question. Ideally, yes we need unity. But when we offered it, it was rejected. Right now we are working towards an amicable divorce. Why can't we move on as brothers and sisters and say you become MDC A you become MDC B, OK? We share our assets we share our slogans, we don't involve the Speaker of Parliament, we don't involve the courts. So that we protect our MP's. We have two political parties in the country in an amicable divorce without the courts, without the Speaker of Parliament. Again, our colleagues, so far, have spurned that effort.

Violet: Could it be because they see themselves as being in the majority and see no need to share the party assets?

Arthur: That is the misguided illusion and this is the arrogance that is going to destroy them and destroy Zimbabwe. But, let me answer your question. We believe in working with all democratic forces in the country. But, however given what has happened in the country, there is room in Zimbabwe for two political parties, three political parties. However, what is important is when it comes to elections, people can we sit down and say can we work out a pact? Can we work out a coalition to confront the dictator? But, in the meantime, let's allow Zimbabweans to create opportunities and options for themselves. It's not enough for people to be presented with two people of Zimbabwe to be presented with two people; Mai Mujuru and Tsvangirai. Zimbabwe can do better than that. It's not sufficient for Zimbabweans to be forced between those two. Zimbabwe has so much human capital. We are not disqualifying Mai Mujuru, we are not disqualifying Tsvangirai, we are simply saying Zimbabwe can do better than those two persons.

Violet: But that's automatically disqualifying someone like Tsvangirai. Why would you not think that Tsvangirai is not presidential material?

Arthur: No, no, no, he is presidential material, but why him as the choice only? Why can't we have Violet as another candidate? We need to grow up as a nation and go beyond the simplicity of saying we want to have two choices. Why not four choices, why not five choices? And we are saying we are not prepared, as Zimbabweans, to surrender the legacy and destiny of our country to Mai Mujuru and Tsvangirai alone. They need help. We are not disqualifying them; they need help. And, secondly, I'm saying as a party we realise the importance of unity, we realise the importance of coalitions and we don't rule out pacts, we don't rule out coalitions, we don't rule out rainbow arrangements that are based on principles and values when it comes to elections.

But, for now, we are soldiers on the ground; we are building our party from every village, from every township. We are going to every one of the 120 constituencies, we are building our party, we are recruiting members into our party. We are being well received in the country and we are busy on the ground building a political party that will offer a vision for Zimbabwe, that will offer a strategy to destroy and defeat the dictatorship of Robert Mugabe and build a new society.

Violet: But, do we not run the risk of having something like the Kenyan syndrome where you have so many political parties and most of them useless?

Arthur: Violet, I said to you, come '08, come 2010, depending what's going on the ground, we are open to pacts; we are open to rainbow coalitions to make sure we maximise the potential and possibility of change. I think that answers the Kenyan question.

Violet: And, is it true that you are selling a road map to accept a government of national unity?

Arthur: National unity with who?

Violet: With ZANU PF?

Arthur: We are completely opposed to dictators. Mugabe and ZANU PF represent violence, they represent un-democratic practices, they represent corruption. We have no business going into a government of national unity with criminals. We are fighting to defeat the ZANU PF government. We have no business even thinking or tolerating any such arrangement with ZANU. We are opposed to a government of national unity with criminals and crooks.

Violet: And how are you going to resolve this leadership dispute in the MDC? You did say earlier on that Morgan Tsvangirai has been visible on the ground for the last six years and you have only been visible for three months. But still, how are you going to convince Morgan Tsvangirai's supporters, for example, and the rest of the country to accept you?

Arthur: The starting point is, Morgan Tsvangirai is not the enemy. Morgan Tsvangirai is our brother. We have had a disagreement around values and principles but we are fighting for the same cause. Our common enemy is ZANU. Our common enemy is Robert Mugabe. And we, as a party are going to concentrate on fighting ZANU PF government, on fighting Robert Mugabe, and bring about democracy in Zimbabwe. And, more importantly, we are going to concentrate on our economic vision, our economic mandate and strategies to make Zimbabwe the Singapore of Africa, to make Zimbabwe the Malaysia of Africa. And we are prepared to work with anybody who is prepared to the ZANU PF dictatorship; anybody who is committed to values and principles of social democracy; anybody who shares the destination economy for Zimbabwe. We do not fight anybody else except ZANU and Robert Mugabe.

Violet: I just want to go back to the issue of elections and get some clarification from you on this because you have attacked Morgan Tsvangirai for saying that elections were rigged and they will not be free and fair. Are you not appeasing the dictator by saying such things?

Arthur: The past three elections were rigged by Robert Mugabe and ZANU. The own fault we put on ourselves as opposition people is that we have not studied enough the rigging mechanisms and techniques so that we can minimise the chances and possibilities of the next elections being rigged. That's the first charge. The second charge is we have not come up with credible and implementable plan B so that in the event of fraudulent elections, in the event of electoral theft by Mugabe and ZANU PF, we can execute a plan B that will make it impossible to get away with theft.

Mugabe should never live to explain the fraudulence that he has been executing on these elections. So, we do not believe the next election will be free and fair. ZANU will try as before to rig and defraud the next elections. But, its not enough to say that. What we are saying is it's not enough to say that. We must understand and mitigate the rigging business and secondly we must come up with credible plans so that we can make it impossible for them to get away with it. For our part actually, we are saying not only must we have a plan B, we must have a plan C, D and E.

Violet: But what are some of these plan C, D and E and how do you hope to bring about change in a system where the ruling party controls the democratic process at every stage?

Arthur: Of course we won't be giving you the details, but we are saying strategically, that's where we are; there must be a credible plan B. And, if we don't get a credible executable plan B we are failures. So we are charging Zimbabwean opposition parties with failure in so far as they have failed in the past to design Plan B and to execute Plan B. But, more importantly, let me say this, it's not enough to discuss defeating Mugabe, we must discuss unoiteyi kanawapinda. What are you going to do when you get into power? Where is your vision? Where is your capacity as a team? Where is organisational capacity? Where is your macro-economic programme? Where is your science and technology strategy? Where is your health care plan? Where is your land revolution plan? Discuss and debate that now. Tell us about the vision now. And, not only that, we are saying the opposition parties in Zimbabwe must also start to deliver now when they are in opposition. What are you doing now as an opposition party to empower Zimbabweans who have been disempowered by Mugabe. What are you doing to assist in the solution of problems in the rural areas? A school that needs classrooms, a hospital that needs beds, healthcare HIV training, programmes for women, programmes for young people. We do not want to wait until we get into power to make a difference. We want to be relevant to our constituencies. So as part of our strategy of mobilisation, we are going to deliver now.

Violet: In a nutshell, can you give us a little glimpse of what your vision is?

Arthur: Our vision is of a Zimbabwe which is the leading democracy in Africa, ahead of South Africa. We want our democratic institutions, our democratic culture, our democratic characteristics to be the leading ones in Africa. Ahead of South Africa. We want our per capita income, our GDP to be in the top five countries in Africa. We want our to be competitive viz a viz the European Union, viz a viz the Americas. We have a vision. We are saying to the world in 1957 the GDP of Singapore was the same as the GDP of Ghana.

Today, the per capita income of Singapore is ahead of Germany, France and Britain. What happened in Singapore under Lee Kuan Yew? We are not romanticising Lee Kuan Yew, we are simply saying they have done something. Mahatir has done something in Malaysia. India, Ireland - these countries have taken advantage of the new economy. As Zimbabweans we are not content with just surviving. We want to fly, we want to be the super star economy of Africa. We've been in the past the bread basket of Africa, surely, we can rise again and go beyond what we were in the past. And, not only that we have a strategy to take us from where we are; the economic crisis, to the promised land.

Violet: Can people wait for you to take us there?

Arthur: They can wait yes, because the strategy has got two components, governance and the economic programmes. The governance, this is where we have our jambanja and demonstrations. We are going to use it by the way, don't believe the hype that we are the participation ones who are - we know how to carry out jambanja in Zimbabwe. We are the definers of jambanja. Jambanja is in our DNA and so jambanja is part of our strategy. Elections and participation are part of our strategy. So what we are saying is we want Mugabe to go yesterday, but, it's important to talk about what you are going to do when he goes.

Do you have capacity as a party to drive the country, do you have the capacity, do you have the vision, do you have the strategy? Do you have the global networks, do you have the capital; the access to capital; to drive that economy? So, we are saying to the people of Zimbabwe, we are not promising pie in the sky in thirty years time, today we are going to address the issue of fuel shortages, of food, of unemployment, of health care, of school fees that are unaffordable. But, we are going to do it in such a manner that it will never happen again in Zimbabwe, that we have this crisis. We are looking for a solution today but also solution that will make sure that in thirty years time, in twenty years time, we will never even imagine the economic crisis that Mugabe and his surrogates have created in Zimbabwe. So, we are going to address the here and now but marry it to the big picture.

We are going to talk about a new constitution but identify that new constitution is a tool to solve bread and butter issues now. We are going to talk about a vision in twenty years, a vision in thirty years, but show people that vision is part of the solution now. So we are rooted in the resolution of bread and butter issues today but with a vision to make sure that never, never again should Zimbabweans be subjected to this chaos.

Violet: Thank you very much Mr Mutambara

Arthur: Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Violet: Professor Arthur Mutambara speaking to us when he recently visited London. As part of these discussions on the way forward we hope to soon bring you an interview with the President of the other MDC faction, Morgan Tsvangirai.
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